Sorry but I have to point out I have taken losses on Prototype SW figures, it happens it doesn't matter the rareity, eveyone who collects realizes that rareity does not equate into value.

Another example, take Mage Knight, around 2000 this was one of the Hottest things going, I actually have had several items that banked over $300 bucks (a few are one of a kind protos, ect). I couldn't give the things away if I wanted to, the line has 0 interest. It is highly likely there will never be any interest in it again.

The same seems to be happening with Heroclix now (on the plus side I might finally get that KC superman I wanted for under $50) but the point is everyone who collected it knew all this, if they didn't well they learned the hard way.

But I used examples of widely released collectables to illistrate the point in a way most people can relate to or at least research easily if they had doubts of the claims I was making.



That is why people try to unload this stuff fast, in the past 15 years (with eBay and other interent sources making the scarce commonplace) most people know if you want a return on your investment you have to turn it over ASAP. Look online at what is going for high numbers, its not the old stuff and hasn't been for a while.

And (which is why I pulled out Mage knight) the truth is the market can drop off in a snap of a finger, you can never predict what might or might not happen. I grant you there could be something to increase value just as easily, but the fact is there is no predictablity with any collectable, sure there are some educated guesses, and some of those will be dead spot on, some won't. But the fact is there is always risk and tons of variables that cannot be predicted no matter how hard you try.

For all I know Heroclix shutting down could drive the value through the roof. My educated guess is that it won't (given history of Mage Knight0 but I can't say for 100% certainty. Nor can anyone else about pictures and current values.



I agree about Disinformation, but that is the reason to keep things hidden, seems like hiding things leads to more disinformation. It seems information can ONLY be garnered by examination, not hiding.

Since everyone loves the art analogy, take the Mona Lisa, would we know so much about depth and perspective in renasance art without her. If she was hidden away would there be much congecture and myth surrounding this painting? Actually there is and she is right in front of everyone to be seen. How bad might this be without first hand ability to examine her?

>"How many people think they saw a Legit PDD on the shelves? Tons...How many can be tracked down? a handful...honestly One... The misinformation that was spread by YoJoe on an item like that has a Huge effect on the Value of an item."

A variable in the gamble, again something you must accept when you walk in if you are in it for "the value." there are forces beyond your control, if you can't accept that and thus try to learn from it you don't need to drop so much money on such items in the first place.



Which is also why if you want to get into that much money being dropped you need to be ready for misinformation. I dont like misinfo, but it is a fact of collecting. But then again I wouldn't just give up on something valuable without some kind of visual confirmation, a person's word is not what it used to be. You can't trust "Joe lover 1520" (Note made up name so if someone goes by that handle sorry) saying he has rare peice just cause he said he has it. That would be like buying the Broklyn Bridge.

I don't think the Black Ice example is all that apt. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging the figure but it was, in fact, itself a custom, so yes, it would be rather easy to recreate. But remaking, say, these techno-walkers or even more conventional items like the Ninja Commandos wouldn't just be a matter or piecing together and repainting. And, to follow the argument of "People don't know what these things look like so they would be easier to fake"....isn't that more an argument for why we SHOULD show off pictures of these items? I mean, I had never heard of these before this thread, so if someone had posted, say, a repainted exo-squad figure and said it was a techno-walker prototype, I wouldn't have been able to say one way or another whether or not that was true. But now, having seen these, I know what the technowalkers looked like and therefore would not be that easy to fool. That's how people can pick out fake Heavy Metal mics...they can go to Yojoe and look up pictures of the original. Wouldn't it be better to get the information out to educate people and preserve the integrity of the pieces?

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I don't disagree with you. However, I will grant that there are reasons to keep something out of the public eye that I can't argue with. If I showed you a hand painted model of what I was telling you was a techno-walker thingymabob, are you 100% certain you could tell me it was something a customizer did or something that was an actual pre-production mock up? If someone is trying to dig up the dirt on something very few people know about, the last thing they want is a copycat popping up on ebay trying to scam people. It makes the research of the item all that much harder. I guess that goes back to misinformation which goes back to educating which becomes circular logic after a while.

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I'm not sure that's true at all Zed....I still think you're comparing apples to oranges...Things as unique as the Techno Walkers are beyond "rare" items. You keep bringing up current/fad items that "people can relate to" But we're not talking about that type of rarity or value...we're talking about a unique intrinsic value




You're talking pop/fad items...If and when you see these items come up on ebay they go fast and high...manytimes ending the auction before it's run it's full course.




None of this stuff is "hidden" Nobody has these things locked in a safe never to see the light of day....information is being sought where it can verified...but also it's not all out there for everybody to speculate on...for joe schmoe who just bought his 1st 25th yesterday and dosn't know Effects from SnowStorm to give his Oppinion on it.




Correct...if you're going to spend so much money on an item, it makes sense to do a little research....but how many Fake PPD auctions popped up while a lot of the History was tracked down in the 10 years since 97...A Ton.




Which is also why if you want to get into that much money being dropped you need to be ready for misinformation. I dont like misinfo, but it is a fact of collecting. But then again I wouldn't just give up on something valuable without some kind of visual confirmation, a person's word is not what it used to be. You can't trust "Joe lover 1520" (Note made up name so if someone goes by that handle sorry) saying he has rare peice just cause he said he has it. That would be like buying the Broklyn Bridge.[/quote]

Why should Misinformation be "a fact of collecting"? Why should I as a hypothetical high end collector put photos of my items out for the general population if all it's going to do is generate false information...There is no benefit to posting the immages publicly while the research into an item is being done.

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I think the truth of the situation is that if any of us want to see more than what we have already seen, any one of us has two options:

1. Do the research to locate them, then spend the cash it takes to get them.

or

2. Make it as likely as possible for people already digging for these items to show them to everyone.

If you don't buy it yourself and you berate those who show items....what is the plan for seeing more? Unfortunately, that is often what happens when someone shows off an item. People never think "oh he bought that this week" or "he is showing us all he has." It is usually, "I can't believe we never see this stuff" or "what aren't you showing us?" or worse "those belong to the community...you have no right..."

I think one point missing in this thread is that no one can actually own all of the one-of-a-kind items. So keep in mind that even the people who have a few unseen pieces are probably missing out because somebody else has something that person hasn't seen. Yet the many obstacles already talked about keep mutual enjoyment from happening. Due to this, I don't really see the struggle as a "haves" vs "have-nots" so much as it is the "heven't-seen-its" vs the "will-cause-trouble-so-no-one-gets-to-see-its."

CJack brings up a good example with the sketches shown to him by Larry Hama. But it is a good example, because the pages were all shown (I am still grateful and have those files saved!) after they were legitimized. How so? They came from the hands of Larry Hama. How can it get more legit than that? If the situation was different in only that detail, it would have been a good idea to hide them until they could be authenticated.

For example, what if instead of Larry showing them after lunch it had been a co-worker or neighbor who just insists they are legit. CJack would have had the choice of showing them to everyone right away or waiting. If he shows right away, there is the chance someone else knows something and can prove the pages are legit. But that also runs the risk of spreading the word about them if they turn out to be fakes.

I recently had the chance to buy a prototype 25th sculpt Python Tele-Viper. I didn't broadcast it. I talked about it among friends. Upon closer examination, we found it was a fake (and I'm glad I didn't shell out the cash for it). The community is now better for the fact that I didn't spread falsehoods. Has anyone found that 25th Duke with Indian flag yet? No....but I saw people asking about it for months. It was fake. It looked real and unfortunately its tale lives on. How about a blue Storm Shadow from Argentina in Cops box? Have you ever actually met one of the famed "midnight chinese" factory workers? We can't ruin the hobby for everyone by allowing false info to become a part of it.

And I think the Black Ice comparison is spot on. Black Ice may not be 1-of-a-kind, but it was such a small quantity it is comparable. Yeah, it would be hard to recreate an item when it was scratch built. But keep in mind a lot of Joes from the original run were repaints. And as you can see in commercials, it was often characteristic of Hasbro to use existing parts ("glorified" customs....much like Black Ice), repainted to make a new item. The result is that we really do need some people in the community who have seen enough items first-hand to tell the difference.

And taking that art comparison a step further, it is common for the edges of paintings to remain hidden from the general public for security purposes. Similarly, I think some details that authenticate a rare piece need to remain hidden. You can still appreciate a Joe without (for example) being able to see the back of his legs...or the inside of the figure...or whatever the owner wants to keep private.

As a whole, I would really love to see this topic end up being constructive. As we get older, there is less time for us to soak in all the Joe info that is out there. It would be awful if we never see another preproduction item for the rest of our lives. They really do enrich the hobby and we are all better for it. So I know I won't be the one slinging mud at the people who invest their energy into revealing more.

double post

The Joe-Iluminati really exist! I seen 'um!

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Well I got bored with these posts by the time I got to the 2nd page so I just googled Technowalker Hawk and found several pictures etc.
My thinking is if you want something private it shouldnt come up in a google search like this page did

http://www.dll47.com/index.php?c=G.I.%20Joe

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After a few tries off & on, going to have to ask what google query you used to find that. I may have been trying some wrong variations, but wouldn't mind seeing if they worked to find say, star wars stuff.

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If you would have read this thread through out, you would have seen that this link has been posted twice already.

Well I guess I got lucky and I didnt have to read the whole thread because google was quicker and now it is on here a third time to make it easier for other people who might not have the time to read the whole thread.

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It doesn't help any topic to just jump to the end and assume that what you have to say hasn't already been said. Just as an fyi, posting that link while disregarding the debate (that I think has been constructive) could unintentionally flame some of the people who posted in opposition to it.

And if you had read the thread, you'd know that a proper google search for this topic may have revealed this:
http://www.bakerboy.com/images/Photos/Large/donuts.jpg