an interesting convo rose out of one of Tim 's threads

Is cobra facist? or equal oppurtunety?

SOme pointed out a lot of the facist imagry, especially in the early comics.

Me personally, especially with al the operations they had in ethnic countries, and several Minorities within Cobra,I would say no.

your thoughts?

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I think the facist imagery was an artistic device and marketing ploy - making them look communist could be controversial, and limit the areas the toy line could be marketed. WWII facists are like the all around acceptable "evil" and the look of their uniforms is immediately recognizable as such.

And, it was already the standard in little plastic army men.

-David

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He is neither damnit! He is a Hero to the downtrodden and the forgotten! That propaganda that the government tried to spew..LIES!!!
All Hail Cobra Commander!

i just think he's misunderstood...

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Fascism does not equal racism. Although fascists can be racists, you don't have to be racist to be a fascist.
Fascism is an extreme form of nationalism which exalts the state over the individual. The needs of the state come first. The needs of the individual are subordinated to those of the state.
In the most famous example fascism, Nazism, used both nationalistic and racial appeals on the German people to enact the Nazi socialist agenda (Nazi=National Socialist). Keep in mind from a classic American political perspective all these movements: socialism, fascism, communism are all leftist movements in that they seek to put the power of the state over the individual. The Soviets called the Nazis "right wing" in their propaganda because the nazis were to the political right of the Soviets in terms of how far the state would have control over its citizens lives. {I also think, but I have to check ,that the Nazi party organized on the right side of the German parliment and the Communists organized on the left, but I'm not sure. It might have been the Italian fascists and the Italian commies in their parliment, but that's where the left-right terms come from}
From our perspective, it would be a matter of a small degree of difference. But in terms of their conflict it was a huge difference, just read some histories on the savagery of the Eastern Front. Its also why European left-right terms shouldn't be applied to American politics but that's my personal gripe.

Many totalitarian states, such as the former Soviet Union, China, and North Korea use extreme nationalist imagery in their propaganda. Look at the Beijing Olympic games. The closest comparison was with the Nazi Olympic games.

I've always viewed Cobra Commander as a neo-populist Stalinist. In the 80's in my Joeverse the Soviets were using Cobra against the US, like they would any client state, such as Cuba. Cobra was using the Soviets just as much for material support. In the comics CC would utter the usual socialist revolutionary rhetoric."Evil corporations, oppressive government yadda-yadda-yadda." Cobra and the Soviets had the same agenda, they just disagreed over who would be in charge. Today, with the collapse of the Soviets, Cobra is trying to fill the void, sometimes competing with the Chicoms, NorKs, and Al Queda types and sometimes helping them against the West.

I believe the Italians were a facist government in WWII also, but they weren't NAZIs at all.

COBRA isn't tied to any one nationality and for them to operate worldwide I think they would need all sorts of recruits from everywhere. The cartoon, comics and toys all support this too.

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Yup, Hitler actually got the idea from Il Duce iirc. 'Fascism' comes from the Roman symbol of the fasces, an axe made with a lot of spindly sticks that individually would break but that together make the axe strong:


I understand they would parade the fasces before the senators, tribunes, and Caesars while they were on their way to the Senate, or something.

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Very interesting point of view. It also clarifies several points.

I've always believed Cobra wasnt racist, but actually anti-establishment.

on the other hand, Cobra Commander did use serious Capitalistic means to create and fund Cobra. such as using the Terrordromes to create violent tendencies in the population, therefore fueling he need to buy weapons, Functioning in political and civil "Hotbeds", selling weapons to Both sides (he could have run That operation is Sierra Gordo Indefinetly), using pyramid schemes to fund and fuel local unrest against the local governments...

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Italian fascists were not Nazis. They were allies. Heck they, Germany, and Japan made up the Axis. Nazis were in Germany, Austria, and what was then Yugoslavia. Often found in the German populations of those regions.



Yeah, CC had no problem using the very system he was fighting against to further his own needs. The whole idea of the Crimson Guard was to create a fifth column of business executives, politicians, bankers, and especially lawyers to undermine America from within. If you recall, the KGB really did try something similar in the US. Attempting (and succeeding in many cases) in infiltrating government agencies, the media, and academia. With businesses it was more industrial espinoage, like one of the first MiG Jet engines was a direct steal of a Rolls-Royace Jet engine, etc.
I see Destro doing some of this, but I think he's also into playing all sides for a profit.
You know, having just seen Quantum of Solace, I think Cobra and Destro are kind of modeled on evil Bond organizations like S.P.E.C.T.E.R and Quantum. Both are ruthless shadowy organizations willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their ends. Although S.P.E.C.T.E.R. and Quantum seem more interested in wealth than political power. Whereas Cobra Commander was more into political power.

I think cobra is all over the place. I can't keep track.

I actual like the idea that Cobra Commander considers himself a true patriot. He believes that special interest groups and same old Washington politics have corrupted this great nation. He is modern revolutionary and those like him will bring change for the better. Through the absolute rule of COBRA!. Any higher motives he has are forgotten when there's a chance for more power or money.

I don't think COBRA would be a racist organization, it wouldn't be efficent for their aims. Even though CC dresses like The Grand Wizard, I can't see him letting race get in the way of people dying for his vision. Besides according too some people CC's a god damn snake person

I like to think that my COBRA is Nihilistic.
They use fascist imagery because they know people will react to it!
They are shrewd in picking targets and while it seems their is no rhyme or reason to their actions they do not do anything unless it debases culture and civilization. Which some speculate is a defensive reaction, could these men and women be scorned by culture for some reason?

On the beliefs of the Cobra Organization, focusing on that of its command structure abstract
( I wrote this for a philosophy class a few months back):

Some see COBRA Commander as a man who doesn't afford himself the luxury of faith in anything, including his own movement. Events have shown the Baroness and Operative Blackout share this view. Though recent changes in the Baroness's life, IE her relationship with the man known as Destro and her pregnancy have shifted her view. When asked to comment on the philosophical drift away from Nihilism she stated that it was the result of a jaded youthfulness. While many COBRA operatives share this belief (the Interrogator and more) many see it as a despicable dark side of an organization that fuels their personal anti-social lusts (extreme selfishness). COBRA Commander rarely offers a justification for his actions because rationalization is the antithesis of his philosophy. Instead his actions seem to almost unknowingly strive for balance in nature (the Yang to rational belief's yang). The only concrete motivation for his actions seem to be to combat rationalistic thinking and highlight its inadequacies. Some intelligentsia have comment that this may be a front for truer self centered motivations of power and control. What ever the core of the behavior, sheer anarchy, indulgence of anti-social behavior or simple hatred of rational behavior the COBRA organization and all affiliated organizations, agencies and groups is and has been the most serious threat to our global civilization to date.

End Brief.

Steve - flexing his philosophical muscles, which seem to have atrophied in the past year.

Edit * I must have written this drunk because after rereading it I found many grammatical errors! Sorry Folks!

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I don't think really facist or racist.

The goal of Cobra seems to be to take down the governments and powerful organizations of the world to replace them all with Cobra. Since these groups all have power symbols Cobra would need powerful symbols as well. Throw in some pomp and ceremony because people respond to those sorts of things, heck some people down right need them as part of their life.

I'd imagine they are equal oppurtunity just as long as you buy into Cobra's veiw of an ideal world united under Cobra.

I think the reason we don't see a lot of minorities in the Cobra is like when someone said that Hasbro likely thought it would send the wrong message somehow to have the bad guys minority people.

actually, the reason why there aern't a lot of minorties in Cobra (toys) was be cause of the "Quota". I noticed that there was one black figure, one Female figure, and one "other" figure per year with the toys. Exactly why they did this, other than the "Girl figures dont sell" crap, I do not know. But its true, count them for yourself! They kept that formula until Battle Corps Hit in 92.

in other mediums, (Comics, Cartoons) Ive seen several Minorities in Cobra, especially in the comics. maybe not so much as CObra Blueshirts, but there were several operatives in Sierra Gordo who were cobra soldiers, the aformentioned Clay Moore, and some of the technicians appeared to be minorities.

..not to mention, you never know who's behind those Tecno Viper, Snow Serpent, or Viper masks.

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While I am not political or even military historian, I tend to see Cobra, and especially Cobra Commander, as an organization willing to use whatever means necessary, including a country's own system against itself, and particularly if it meant being deceptive, in order to achieve its objective, which was, ultimately, political and military power over the populace on a global scale via a dictatorship.

I think some of the earliest imagery of Cobra in the comic books has to be partially dismissed as the concept was just finding its place and the characters were just being created.

Consider some of the following factors in determining what Cobra was about: Both the United States and the Soviet Union, then the two greatest super-powers in the world, had organizations specializing to one degree or another in dealing with Cobra. The main difference between the Joes and the Oktober Guard, and Cobra, is that the other two represented legitimate nations in possession of large areas of land. They had actual borders to protect, defend, control, whatever. All Cobra ever had was Cobra Island, which was nevertheless an impressive feat as it did legitimize them for a time. But for the most part, I think the definition of Cobra as a shadow or terrorist organization was the most accurate, with their objective indeed being "determined to rule the world", a line admittedly from the animated series, but nevertheless carried over into the comics as Cobra repeatedly tried to insinuate itself into the political and military machines of a great many fictional countries, and a few real ones, not to mention right into the general populace.

Consider one of the means Cobra garnered recruits AND earned the money necessary to fund its projects. Look at Springfield. Look at the town they took over while Mutt and Spirit came into it. They offered jobs, income, security, essentially claiming that the nation's leaders, government, and corporations were incapable of filling those needs, but Cobra could, and WITHIN the system that existed. They didn't have to use the Brainwave Scanner all the time, either. A lot of people were just fooled into thinking that Cobra was as American as apple pie, if not better.

I don't see Cobra or Cobra Commander as being either racist or necessarily specifically fascist. I think what happened was Cobra Commander took his own history as a used car salesman, applied the same sort of sales strategies to the founding of Cobra, took what he knew of military history, found what had worked to one degree or another, and just combined it all together. I'm not saying he came up with anything new per se, but he took what worked from various political philosophies, including capitalism, and built Cobra on that basis.

If anything kept Cobra from succeeding, it was probably Cobra Commander being too obsessive about the Joes from time to time, and too many of Cobra Commander's associates either working against him, as was seen more than once from Baroness, Major Bludd, Zartan, Dr. Mindbender -- or having their own agendas, which I think was certainly the case with Destro, who was probably less interested in ruling the world as he was selling it weapons. To him, Cobra was probably a means to two ends -- selling a lot of weapons in a short period of time, and having the license to develop unconventional weapons that smaller pseudo-military organizations wouldn't likely finance or be interested in. Destro's biggest "problem" was that his personal sense of honor kept him from subscribing too far into Cobra's "whatever it takes" attitude.

I've long subscribed to this theory as well. Call me a Cobra sympathizer, I've always seen CC as an idealist revolutionary battling perceived corruption, until he himself was corrupted by greed and power. At the same time I can see enough of an old world/European influence in his heirarchy which would relegate minorities to the battlefield or support roles only. He has no problem using them, but not rewarding them. Hence the black Blueshirt made much more sense to me than the black CG. (I still don't have the black CG though, having passed on the OCS set).

I'd still like to see a black Viper one day though, both in 25th and RAH style.